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09 October 2010
His father and two brothers are Baptist preachers, and Thad Cockrell (www.thadcockrell.com) was heading in the same direction, graduating from a North Carolina theological seminary, before deciding that his real calling was music. “I’ve always loved the twang of hurt” is a quote which explains some of the reasoning behind the move, and the sound of his wistful tenor voice is a good indication that he’s made the right choice. His second album “Warmth and Beauty”(Yep Roc 2003) was very well received, and he completed his first successful tour of the UK in May 2004. On the last date of that tour, Barry Jones met up with Thad, and had a chat over a cool beer on a warm spring Sunday afternoon in Manchester. Interview Date: 2nd May 2004
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Thad, (Co-Producer) Chris Stamey said that you reminded him of Ryan Adams in a way. You and Ryan Adams seem poles apart in a lot of ways, but do you approve of the comparison? Let me find the quote, I wouldn’t want you to think I was making it up...he said “he’s very passionate about his music, and that of other people as well, he wakes up every morning on fire to do it, which reminds me of Ryan Adams in a way.” Are you happy with that? The people that you admire, people like Harlan Howard, Boudleaux Bryant, Willie Nelson, Sam Cooke, it’s a fairly eclectic mix of recognised songwriters. Are there any amongst the more recent crop that you see real sparks? Jeff Tweedy falls in what I would consider to be alt-country, and you’ve been fairly outspoken about not being particularly fond of what the alt-country set is? You have talked about wanting to go onto a major label, but at the moment your audience is probably made up of those alt-country fans. Do you feel that you might alienate them somewhat? In Europe, and Holland particularly, they have a big alt-country scene, and there may be a danger, that if you don’t see yourself in that field, that you might lose what could be a fairly considerable audience this side of the Atlantic. A lot of the people on major labels in America don’t come over to Europe, would you continue? I’ve seen reviews which refer to your views on alt-country, and that is alienating to people who are an alt-country audience. I think when you explain it from that perspective that it makes more sense. I think that if people just take a sound bite, then it can look a bit condemning. It’s nice to get the opportunity to put it straight. On Caitlin Cary’s “I’m Staying Out” album you provide backing vocals on a co-written track, which is one of the highlights, certainly for me. Is there anybody else you would like to write with, or any female vocalist you would particularly like to duet with? I’m sure you’d get to do that at the end. (Both laughing) Some of Lucinda Williams’ best work, that I’ve heard, is when she duets with Steve Earle because she sings… Any of the mainstream acts? But you’re talking about moving to Nashville? One of the things about Nashville, for me, is, apart from say Paul Burch and BR549, and that kind of thing, which seem to be very much on the edge, the rest of it tends to be Music Row, and you don’t seem to me to be that sort of guy? Well he was very marginal. If you were going to record there, would you still record with the same musicians? I read a review of that somewhere, doing Beach Boys covers like “God Only Knows”, was that you singing those? You attended the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Do you ever feel that that is what you should be doing, or are you totally committed to a musical career? You have obviously had a considerable education in theology, up to a point where you were in a position where you could be a pastor y’know, yet you made a decision, a few years ago, to change to music. Is that your commitment still, or do you feel that you might go back to being a pastor at some stage? That’s fair enough, it’s just I suppose there’s a lot of training involved in something like that? I’m not saying it’s wasted in the role that you’re doing. I suppose that all study informs your life anyway? I wasn’t suggesting it was a waste. We’ve talked about this about contemplating a move to Nashville; I take it you haven’t moved yet? I’d read an apparently official statement, which said that you were happy with audience members taping shows, is that right? And how do you feel about file sharing and music downloading? Unofficial downloading is obviously not on the same scale, because there’s just not as many people. Also I understand that you get royalties from the radio here, but I was talking to Slaid Cleaves earlier on in the week and he’s been number one on the Americana chart, and he doesn’t seem to get any money from those radio stations? Yeah I think that’s one of the things with Radio 2, because it’s so big and such a big audience that the sampling from the PRS is solid. Who have you been listening to while you’ve been on tour? That’s a shame. And what’s next for you then? What’s happening when you go back? “Warmth and Beauty” was actually released, in this country, October last year, when would you expect to have a follow up to that? So no major plans at the moment, is that the answer? Do you have a name of a major label that you think is a label with integrity, that you would like to go with? Well that’s all the questions that I had for you Thad, I’ve enjoyed talking to you, thank you very much.
Well, I don’t… I don’t know, I think Ryan has written some really beautiful music y’know so ….if that’s the way he’s comparing us I’ll take it as a compliment.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but I think that’s the truth of Ryan too. I think that’s why, ultimately I mean, I think he’s written some great music, and there’s some stuff that I don’t like as much y’know, but that’s the way it is with everybody, but I can really tell that he’s a huge music fan which, like, first and foremost, that’s what I am. Y’know, I mean I’m crazy about music y’know?
Erm, I think that there’s somebody that…her name is Karen Peris, and she has this band called The Innocence Mission, she’s completely under everybody’s radar and is as brilliant as they come. I mean just amazingly. Her phrasing, her lyrics, I mean her music, melody, everything, it’s unbelievable. If I had a daughter, or a niece, or somebody that wanted to get into playing music and writing, I would go get her all Innocence Mission records even before Joni Mitchell’s “Blue”, but y’know I think there are some great…there’s this band called Roman Candle, they write…It’s a rock’n’roll band, but they write some very cool stuff. I think Josh Ritter is really good. Matt Beckler, the guy that’s playing with me right now, he’s really phenomenal. I don’t know how he’s not world over known, but there’s a lot of people out there I think. Even some of the people that are really well known I think are great. I’m a huge Jeff Tweedy fan, I think he’s great y’know, but I guess everybody’s kind of knows about him. But I think there’s a lot of really great singer songwriters out there right now. And that are doing a lot of different genres, not just country …I think they’re smarter in the sense, and they’ve got the freedom to be able to…like on a record you’ll hear a soul cut, and then like something that’s very country influenced, y’know? There’s something that’s just kinda out there I… that’s good, I think that that’s moving in the right direction, because who ultimately wants to be in a box?
Y’know, because I just think there’s just so much I don’t know. I like what I like and there’s a lot of stuff that I dislike. There’s even stuff that’s pop music that I like. Y’know and most of it I don’t like, and it’s the same with alt. Country. I mean 15 % of it I think is really great, the rest of it I can completely do without. It won’t be lasting, it has no gravity to me, but to other people, they might, so great y’know, it’s such a personal thing, y’know? I mean, I’m really a fan of anybody getting to do what they want to do. If they can go out, and do it, and make a living out of it, that’s great.
No, not where I live, that’s not the truth. Maybe around here, but not where I live. I mean where I live there’s a lot of people would say that the only country record that I have is a Thad Cockrell record, because they don’t like country music. Well I mean that’s cool, y’know? I mean, I open up for rock’n’roll bands in the States y’know …and they completely dig it, so I think what I’m trying… what I’m going… y’know coming here my first time, and then what I’m going to go away and try to do is to come back, and instead of supporting, y’know a country thing, I want to support rock’n’roll bands y’know? I mean this younger audience has to get tapped somehow and they’ll like, y’know they’ll love it. I mean that’s how it is where I live. I mean, there is the older audience, but there’s a lot of the younger audience too y’know. I’m a young man y’know, I want some hot girls at the show (Laughing)
That’s ridiculous man, I mean people take it, if they listen to it, they’ll make up their mind y’know.
Yeah, because I think I’ll always want to come here. I’ve loved it. I think that there’s a great reception for it. I think the reason why people on major labels don’t come over here is they know their BS will get called y’know what I mean? I mean I don’t…I really don’t see an audience for Kenny Chesney here, there’s not. I mean the college students…I mean we’re sat in the middle of college students, and I’m thinking “Hah!” they would crinkle their nose at the sound of (sings drearily) “When the sun goes down” y’know it just…there’s not an audience, so I think they’re smart for not doing it. I think it’s interesting to see Pat Green trying, but some would still call him alt-country movement y’know. Do you think I’m in danger of losing a bunch of fans by not claiming to be alt-country?
Well I think if Jeff Tweedy’s alt-country then that’s great music, but I hear a lot of alt-country that is… it’s bad, it’s badly written, it’s badly…the guy can’t sing, I don’t know it’s just…there’s just never been in the history of like pop music, and that’s what alt-country is, it’s just popular in a certain demographic, or in a certain niche, but it’s still pop music, there’s just never been that much great music, there just hasn’t been. I mean even with soul music, I mean you go back, and there is really only about y’know every decade spawns about ten really great people and then y’know… so I mean there’s lots and lots and lots of records out there. They all can’t be good, and hell mine might not be one of them, y’know what I mean? I just…I guess ultimately, I mean to me it’s like this; by me saying I’m alt-country and shooting for that genre, I think you’re…it’s almost like preaching to the choir. If I put my records out they’re gonna like my records, I mean they’re gonna get it, y’know what I mean? But by going for that, that’s where you end up You end up in a little cul-de-sac and why not y’know… I think it’s such a narrowing, it’s such a narrowing…although ultimately if you really were honest about it, y’know, if The Rolling Stones were out right now, they’d be alt-country and so would The Beatles, and so would all the music that we love, but people aren’t connecting that y’know.
Right exactly.
Oh yeah, duet or kiss? What do you think?
Oh yeah, I mean there’s a lot; Karen Peris from The Innocence Mission; I’m a huge fan of Lucinda Williams.
I mean, I don’t agree with Steve Earle’s politics, and I think y’know, you really can’t read an article and think, “Jeez this guy’s an ass!” because what comes off on paper, and what actually happens, y’know is completely two different things. Y’know I could say something with a smile, and like a nod and a wink, and then when they put it down on paper it comes across really y’know…I know that I just don’t agree with Steve’s politics, but I really love his music y’know? I would love to write with people like that. I’m a big Bruce Robison fan and Buddy Miller and Julie Miller…y’know...
Y’know, it’s like crazy I still think, like one of the best records of the 90’s, like you think of, like, Marvin Gaye, and before he made “What’s Going On” Motown had a certain thing, that they were going, and after he made “What’s Going On”, nothing else on Motown was ever the same. It like changed y’know, and like what was that made in? The seventies, like early seventies, so we’re like thirty years past that and now we look back and we see that, and I think that, like in thirty years, they’ll look back at Lauryn Hill’s “Miseducation of Lauryn Hill” and they’ll think about that record in the same way that they do Marvin Gaye. I would love to work with her; I think she listens to a lot of music. I mean you can tell y’know… I think there’s so many…I’ve got so much music that I write, I mean a lot of music, and a lot of it isn’t country, and I think y’know, I’m not going to say what I’ll end up doing y’know fifteen twenty years, but you never know what path you end up taking musically, but I know that I’m all for taking different genres, and bringing them together. I think there’s wonderful stuff about, all the different genres, and y’know if you could like pick and choose and collaborate with some really brilliant people y’know, like DJ Shadow, I love all that stuff, and I don’t know, there’s a lot of people…y’know I love The White Stripes. Man I think Jack White, I would love to…like I would love to sit down and try to write some country music with him. I think he would really get it y’know? I think it wouldn’t at all sound like, in the same way what I write doesn’t sound like it was coming out of Nashville, because ultimately I write…my music is too simple. They want something that is more contrived y’know.
Yeah I’m thinking about moving. I just y’know, I don’t want to get stagnant and comfortable where I’m at. It’s really easy because I’ve got a really great following there. I mean I don’t pay for beer y’know, and everywhere you go people know who you are, and it’s really easy to get in like a comfortable state and be like, “Oh this is my place!” y’know, but I mean I didn’t sign on for that y’know?
Well did Johnny Cash?
Yeah, and they sold millions of records of Johnny Cash, y’know, I think it’s all about getting the right person behind you y’know, and if you can do that and still maintain who you are y’know, I think that’s really wonderful. I think ultimately you have to say that Gillian Welch and David Rawlings went to Nashville and did that didn’t they? I mean they got on a great label, the Alamo, and people, I mean and they just didn’t come out of nowhere I mean they had, like, people behind them, they had great y’know publicity. I mean they got hooked up by working with the right people to get put in the right places at a certain time, and now y’know and all that was is just people saw that they were making great art, and they said, “Y’know I’m going to try to prepare a way for these people to keep making great art the way they want to make it.” And somebody got behind them, and did it, and I think that’s what’ll ultimately end up happening with all the people that we love, y’know that’s in Nashville.
No I wouldn’t record with the same musicians, not because… I think they’re wonderful, I think they’re amazing I think they’re great, I just I want something different. I think I’ll probably make a lot of my next record with this band Roman Candle. That’s a rock’n’roll band, and y’know…
Now we did do that, where did you read that on? Well that just happened the week before I left. We did a series of three nights of shows where people could come in and actually sat in. It was like sold out. It was like ridiculously small down where were doing it, it was hands down like one of the coolest things I’ve ever done musically, and yeah, we did “God Only Knows” we did a bunch of… we did T.Rex, we did so many really cool covers y’know we did like “Cupid”. Yeah, we did that right before we came here. So there it was like all this stuff going on, and I jumped on a plane and came here and so…
Erm, well I mean I don’t know, I don’t know, what do you mean “Is that what I’m supposed to be doing?”
I live in the now, y’know, I mean I think you’d walk yourself in circles trying to y’know this is obviously, y’know I think God gives us all talents, and he’s obviously given me a talent for music, and that’s what I’m doing y’know and if, in fifteen years, I got bored with music and I want to go teach y’know, at a university, that’s basically what I went there for, to have a Masters, so I could go and teach, and if I want to go and do that I can. And ultimately I did that for personal study y’know. I did that for… I did it for more personal reasons than like a vocational, or professional.
Oh yeah.
Well I mean, I mean the training, I mean, I don’t know how much training is… I mean it’s studying, you can’t train somebody to be a pastor. I mean I walked in there, I could have ran it, I mean my dad’s a preacher. I saw…I know how to do it, y’know, I mean he’s a really successful. I mean his congreg… I mean he’s the pastor of a church, which is like three thousand, thirty five hundred members. I mean it’s a huge congregation. I know how to do it, I’ve seen where he’s gone wrong, I’ve seen where he’s gone right y’know? And when I was at seminary, when they were trying to teach that stuff, it was never… I could always tell they had no idea. It wasn’t connecting so…
I still read y’know, all that… I still read y’know like Kierkegard, and still read C.S. Lewis. I mean, I think if you study, if you’re a student, y’know, which I think is an important thing to be in your life, y’know, to continue to keep learning y’know? Then there is...nothing’s a waste y’know.
No, I really…it was in my plans. My dad and I went there before the 1st of the year, actually made an offer on a house, and we just…for some reason, I decided not to, but my plan was still to move there at the beginning of January, and what is it? March? April? May? I’m telling ya I haven’t had time. I mean, I haven’t had, I haven’t had a stretch of two weeks. I’ve had like a week, y’know, and you don’t want to move to a town, throw your stuff down and get out, and I don’t see a window either coming up any time soon.
Y’know it…yeah I think they should tape shows; I want them to tape shows. I mean just because they hear something on a CD, or live at a show, doesn’t mean that they’re not going to go buy it. Y’know. I think the people that are big enough fans to actually take the effort to tape a live show, are also going to be big enough fans to take the effort and go down and buy the CD. And do y’know with file sharing, I think, y’know I really do think that, at some point, people are going to have to realise that it’s not… it isn’t that there’s like a two way screw going on here. I mean you’re gouging it to the big guys, the record labels, and all the artists would say “Yeah”, but at the same time you’re gouging it to the artist and…but I guess, the thing is, I don’t buy in to the whole idea that music industry is on decline because of downloading. The point being, we can go to just about… in our kitchens… we can go to our kitchens, and we can turn on a faucet and get free tap water, and it’s a multi-billion dollar industry of bottled water (laughs) y’know, so why would be people go buy something that they can get for free y’know? My thing is, I just think y’know, I wonder, is the downloading as bad here as it is in the States do y’know?
It’d be interesting to see the comparisons. I bet there is less downloading here, and I bet there’s more CD’s. I…more people that are actually fans, as far as in the comparison of the UK music fan, and the American music fan, it’s night and day, it’s like champion versus like complete putzville, y’know? And once again, like what the… I mean the record industries, they’re fighting the wrong people. If they want to get pissed at anybody, they should start lobbying again to get these damn radio stations back regulated to where…they completely de-regulated the ownership of the radio stations because ultimately…here’s the reason why I can come here, and have a bigger audience, my first time here, than I do in my own country, is because of radio. Because of Bob Harris, on the biggest radio station in this country, I get played, a lot y’know. And so when I go to Newcastle, where I’ve never been, there’s a lot of people that come out to see the show.
And there again, I think that’s where you got to figure out like the reason why most people don’t want to be thrown in the alt-country, is because, first of all, there is absolutely no money whatsoever in that, and all the Americana stations that play you in the States they’re all college, and they don’t pay, so why do you want to get thrown in that? I mean...even off my first record “Stack of Dreams”, I had great royalties from here, from Europe, and y’know I know I’ll get great royalties from “Warmth and Beauty”. I think Bob Harris plays just about every week he plays a song, and then I’ve got this list of a bunch of other people that have been playing it as well so…
And I think, back to what I was saying, I think what you end up happening is that you develop real music fans, I think, when you give people a difference, you give them a choice, and y’know, when there’s a choice, you get to stand for something, or not stand for something, y’know, and when you decide that you’re going to be like, “I like this!” it engages you on a more personal level to want to go out and buy a CD. But it’s been cool to be here, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it.
Y’know we didn’t bring a lot of CD’s over here We’ve been listening to The Shins, Johnny Cash, listening to some Theolonius Monk, and just along the way people have been giving us CD’s. We got the new CD by Beulah, I like that well enough…I don’t know we didn’t bring many CDs. I actually have enjoyed kinda listening to the radio here, just because you get such a diverse…like, we heard Willie Nelson on the radio, he can’t get played in the States y’know?
It is a shame, and y’know today we heard Willie Nelson, followed by Frank Sinatra, we heard a pile of junk, but we heard some good stuff too.
I go back tomorrow, we go back tomorrow, and what’s next? We go back, and I’ve got a lot of shows lined up in May, I mean a lot, and try to write some music y’know.
I’m not sure, I’m not sure. When T Bone Burnett decides to produce my record. I’m going to go to Nashville, I’m going to court him like I courted Chris Stamey, when that happens then the next record will be out, it will be worth the wait.
No major, although I did just get an e-mail from my label saying that they were going to act on my second option, on the second option of our…so I guess that means that they’re gonna want it, but I mean, if you don’t go in the studio, what are they going to do?
(Laughing) Integrity? From a major label? There’s some with more than the others. Y’know, honestly I think it’s all about getting somebody that is really…really believes in what you’re doing, and is going to step up to the plate for you, y’know, and that could happen at any of the major labels, it just depends which one, y’know would want to do that. I mean I’d be all for that. I mean Yep Roc (www.yeproc.com) would too. They have much to gain from something like that happening y’know? I would love to do… to have a different record deal here, y’know, which I’m actually in the process of talking to some people, about so y’know we’ll see.
Thank you.